The following is an interview of Hungarian shaman Joska Soos by Leah Maggie Garfield in 1987, from her book Sound Medicine.

Joska Soos: Urban Shaman

In the spring of 1985, Andre Christiaan Cuppen, my translator, took me to meet his teacher, Joska Soos, a shaman who works with sound. We went to a large flat in an elegant old Brussels building. In its sprawling rooms, crowded with the accoutrements of his trade, we saw Tibetan bowls, many drums, a gigantic crystal, multitudes of gemstones, a tapestry incorporating several of his artistic designs, his paintings, rattles, bells, and a dagger amongst his items. It's hard to recall everything in his dazzling display. His apartment is filled with his own paintings and drawings. Some of them have been made into large tapestries with names like, "Messager Selenite, and Ame du Papillion", (Moon Messenger, Friend of the Butterfly He stresses the importance of art as an expression of the shamanic path. He greeted me warmly, speaking highly about the effect the cover of my book. Companions in Spirit, had on him, since he too is fascinated by the multidimensional spiritual reservoir of the gonshe. Each of us rely on this symbol of the three in one unity concept for healing and visionary practices. He speaks German, French, Flemish, and Hungarian. I was able to converse with his companion in Spanish. But all our interchanges had to go through Andre. Despite the language barrier, we were pleased to meet and felt admiration for one another. The linguistic difference kept us from having a frank discussion of areas where we disagree; I've noted a couple of those in the text. This interview is included so you can recognize that the same components are present universally in shamanism, whether the shaman lives in an urban, rural, or wilderness environment. Obviously the tribal element is missing for most shaman, since the political climate and the onslaught of Christianity have decimated native populations. During the past five hundred years, aboriginal people have been forcibly removed from their homelands and their religions discouraged. This continues today in New Guinea, Africa, South America, and the United States. Disenfranchised by political upheaval, Joska Soos has amazingly retained his integrity and sense of proportion while becoming a globetrotting city dwelling shaman.

 Joska Soos is a Hungarian shaman and artist, born in 1921. At the time shamanism, as an accepted form of healing and mystical rapport with God, was thousand of years old. It was the original form of healing, passed from shaman to apprentice, and widely practiced in the Hungarian countryside. From a local blacksmith, who was also a shaman, Joska learned to use sounds to assist people and animals in regaining their own harmony, thereby healing their physical and spiritual problems. In his book I Don't Heal, I Repair the Harmony (Karnak Publishers, Amsterdam, 1985), Joska related this about his relationship with the blacksmith: "I didn't live with him, but I did spend a lot of time with him, as with a grandfather, including holidays and weekends. This was very common in a village, children were in and out of everyone's homes. I would go with him when he went to treat people and animals, to "work" on them or relieve their pain through laying on of hands or by singing. His songs didn't have words, he only sang the articulation, just the sound itself: OEOEOEOEOEOEOOHOOHOOHOOHRAAGHi He believed that sound doesn't need words because the vibrations carry the meaning, He didn't go through the rational mind but made a direct connection, which isn't dependent on words, with the spiritual realm. This happens in a sort of transcendental state. It functions the same way as the beating of the heart or our breathing. It's actually a primary function which we can activate. That's not magic. Or you could say that everything is magic because it's just as much a mystery how our hearts beat or our breathing continues.

He always stressed this and now I really understand it. One has to be open in a very special way, unconditionally receptive, not critical. Criticism must come later after enough information has been gathered. One must be able to live in a state of wonder, to be childlike. That's the necessary requirement: to be vulnerable." During the Second World War, Joska Soos was a prisoner of war and was forced to perform hard labor in Germany. Later he went to Belgium, where he still resides. The past ten years have been devoted to shamanism and work with sound, especially the human voice. He treats people who seek him out, and teaches workshops on how people can use sound and the concepts of shamanism. He poured me a glass of water and we both sat down at a large table in the middle of the room. His warm, healthy looking brown eyes radiated an inner glow of happiness with his life and enthusiasm for the future.

JS: Ask me anything you want. I'll answer you.

LMG: Joska, sound is for you the most important tool in your work as a healer. Could you tell me more about sound, about the different sounds you use?

JS: There exists an infinite number of sounds, but you could say there are three columns of sound and these are the three pillars of the entire micro- and macrocosmic types. At first I differentiate the primal sound, which can be created by using this large conch shell. It is a continuous sound that also can be made with the mouth or with a horn: OEOEOEOEOEOE. The second sound is a female sound a weaving sound: WOEW WOEW WOEW WOEW WOEW WOEW. The rhythm has a spontaneous effect. Then there is the masculine sound, which is a broken sound like this BRRRRRRRRRRR BRRRRRRRRRRRRR. Toddlers make this sound with their mouths. Why? By making this sound they create a dry, warming condition. This is a fire sound. You can also connect these three sounds together. In all the sounds you hear, a plane, a mouse, a bird, or a human being, you can tell immediately which primary sound is involved, or what mixture it is comprised of. The uppertones (overtones) one hears so much about lately are actually part of every sound, like the primal sound. The uppertones are felt primarily in the head. They are scores of tones which sound together. Uppertones are primarily formed with the upper palate, while the undertones are shaped in the abdomen. There are different levels where sounds are created: abdomen, stomach, chest, throat, mouth, lips, and forehead. Arabs sing primarily from the throat, nose, and forehead.

LMG: You spoke of the masculine sound as the fire sound. Is every sound actually connected with a particular element?

JS: Certainly! The primary sound, for example, contains all the elements: fire, air, earth, and water, plus the spirit which creates life. The undulating female sound, is a water sound. The fire sound connects with the letter R to emphasize its broken character. Various musical instruments produce the sound of a specific element. Wooden instruments are associated with the water element, whereas copper or metal instruments are indicative of the fire element. In shamanic rituals I use a rattle for the fire energy, a bell for air, and the drum for the earth. The manner one plays the instrument determines the element it expresses. For example, the element you reach depends upon how the drum is beaten. The shaman has a drum to call forth all three main sounds. Of course, the human instrument, the voice, also does this. There is a mutual influence between the voice and the element and from the element to the voice. For instance, I listen to the sound of falling water, like rain, and I connect with that sound and through it link up with the element. The shaman, as rainmaker, then sings like the rain and beats the drum, imitating thick raindrops cascading heavily plop, plop, plop. LMG: You also mentioned rhythm as an important factor.

JS: Yes, sound is vibration and rhythm. Rhythm is like a container and sound is the contents. One can therefore never utter a sound without rhythm, just as one cannot talk without sound. Rhythm can exist only when sound is present.

LMG: Could you clarify for the readers how the influence of the human voice functions?

JS: The four elements represent four temperaments, the moods of people. Fire is the malignant temperament, air the melancholic, earth for the bloodless emotionless, and water for the phlegmatic temperaments. As you know most illnesses are psychosomatic. In healing I work with the particular temperament that is responsible for the condition, matching it with the corresponding sound element. Sound by itself is expressive. Sound has a nature. Moods are created with sound. With the right sound one can establish the psychological condition of a person. A classic example can be found in the Bible. When David played the harp for Saul, he was trying to assess Saul's mood through the harp music. That is something shamans do. So I try to get in touch with the problems a person has by attuning to the physical, psychological, and psychic levels. A problem is a mood. I try to contact the dammed up energy, and then, using the same rhythm it has, apply sound. It's actually homeopathy through sound.

LMG: How do you usually proceed when someone comes to you with a problem?

JS: I have them explain what the problem appears to be. I don't invest energy in trying to guess what the problem is although I can sense the person is not balanced and whether the problem is of a physical/profane, psychological/emotional, or psychic/spiritual nature. People are relieved when they're able to communicate the underlying cause of their problem. Our modem society suffers from the fact that we can't share these concerns with each other. Or rather that we don't dare to because inferiority or superiority complexes are in the way. Many people have lost their faith in God and have no faith in human beings or politics either. That's an impossible situation. They have nothing to connect with. Oftentimes people misunderstand their problem completely. Then I tell them "Yes, that's correct from your perspective, but the situation is actually ..." Once the problem has been stated, I begin with my shamanic transformation, assisted by instruments, including a whole series of Tibetan singing bowls. The patient sits opposite me. While drumming and making sounds, I concentrate on the main problem. Often there are side issues that will disappear once the cause has been dealt with. Using a sound range that matches the vibration of the problem creates a resonance that has the potential to restore harmony. From a shamanic perspective this technique goes back thousands of years. Yet there is no problem without a solution, no solution which doesn't create another problem. When someone is sick in a particular organ or body part, the prototype for health and harmony still exists in the nucleus of the cells. Even when one suffers from cancer, the core of health exists undisturbed. The shaman seeks to connect with this healthy center and visualizes it as a gonshe (rotating wheel with three inner arms) of three sounds which s/he attempts to speed up to a higher frequency. Occasionally, I observe that the movement of the gonshe is very, very slow, or that it rotates in the wrong direction, or it has dropped off its axis. Then I need to correct its position and increase its speed with the aid of sound. Once I sense this, I tell the client to sing the mantra. Other sounds surface and spontaneously form a single sound, the primal sound. Then harmony is re-established.

LMG: Is every sound a mantra?

JS: Yes, actually everything that exists is in itself a mantra, a bundle of sounds. A real mantra is not dependent upon words. It is exclusively sound. When you laugh, that's a spontaneous mantra. We have no words to represent sighing or weeping. This is real mantra, which cannot be conveyed in words or images. Such a mantra has to occur spontaneously in whatever language you use: Hebrew, Tibetan, Hungarian, American; every language is sacred. All languages have mantras which are sung and learned by heart with the purpose of reaching a certain moment when words aren't needed anymore to express emotions, like a smile. With a mantra you liberate yourself from the representational and experience only the heart of the matter. In shamanism you use many diverse aspects of a concept. At first, there is the word: you accentuate a word to give it a special meaning. Then you reinforce it with imagery using a sign or symbol like the pentagram or the so-called magic rune symbols or shaping motions when a priest gives a blessing or uses mudras. If this is unsatisfactory or inadequate, you move to the next step: color, just color. The symbolic meanings of color are very important since via color you reach the higher vibration of light which vibrates further into white light.

LMG: Does this relate to sound?

JS: When you experience sound, not through singing anymore but when you are in the sound, literally inside sound, it comes through the word, the image, colors, and light. Sound cannot be expressed without movement; the method itself is movement. The sound goes through everything but you can't start from the top. That's why, in the beginning, the word is of such great importance. Shamanism doesn't repudiate the spoken word, but you have to grow beyond the word. You have to strive to be inside the sound. This is where the true spiritualist or healer can achieve balance. His spirit is inspiring. Just his presence is enough, it's beneficial. He radiates harmony, a focused vibration to bring people into balance. When I'm in the sound. I'm apprised of the vibration of things around me whether I'm on the street or in a train. I also observe the vibration of my own spiritual problem; my incarnation is getting shorter. It's possible to fulfill my mission completely through sound. It's my Spiritual goal as well as the goal of all other spiritualists to achieve the higher, finer vibrations with the aid of sound, and at the same time be of help to people.

LMG: While working the mantra which you give to people, what is the significance of the number of sounds?

JS: I know the symbolic meaning of numbers, but even if I didn't, it wouldn't be important. The main point is that I have found the necessary sound. You're able to enjoy a delicious meal without needing to know the caloric content. You don't even need to know how it was prepared/ To achieve the sound is enough. You don't have to understand the meaning. On the other hand, we are rational beings. Westerners especially want to know first and experience later, so it's important to explain. It's well known that when we know something and can apply the knowledge, the effect is much stronger. When a physician writes a prescription, you go to the pharmacy and buy the pills believing they'll be good for you. But had the doctor explained how the medicine worked, the effect would have been stronger. This is why in a treatment I explain the significance of the number of sounds. Seldom does the number exceed twenty-one. In most cases it's around twelve or thirteen. The natural connection of numbers is self-explanatory. Numerology establishes something that already exists. I believe that every archetypical image has fifty complementary meanings. According to the Jewish Kabbalah, forty-nine of those are applicable to us. The Tibetans speak of sixty-four; however, they work in nuances. We don't need to go that far. We simply start with the basics. To begin, we have a mantra of seven sounds. Since the beginning of human memory and amongst aboriginals today, the number seven has been a mystic number. That's the four elements with the three polarities: positive, negative and neutral. Or it's the four character types with the complimenting polarities. Every number has its symbolic meaning and tells us something about the direction we're working with.

LMG: Are there more ways to work with the mantras?

JS: First of all I don't give the mantra; the people themselves give their own mantra. I observe and give them a few suggestions so they can work with the mantra. They might do a sound meditation for half an hour twice a day. They sing their same special mantra although the rhythm can be different each time. If a spontaneous change occurs in the number of sounds, you follow this alteration. While you're singing the mantra, keep in mind the problems you're dealing with. The transition from a mantra to a continuous primal sound is a physiological signal that the problem has been resolved and harmony restored. Here are a few methods to increase your practice with the mantra. Before you fall asleep, repeat the mantra a few times. Keep it in your thoughts and sleep with it. In the morning when you rise, repeat it a couple of times mentally. It isn't necessary to chant audibly. You can chant in any circumstance that doesn't require much concentration. When washing dishes you can chant your mantra like a lullaby. On public transportation you can chant it silently in your mind. But you must remain focused on the problem or the person you're working with.

LMG: During a shamanic ritual treatment, you have the client taste and feel the singing bowl. What's the purpose of that?

JS: The lamas in Tibet and Mongolia do this too. The singing bowls are made of seven different metals. It's important to be acquainted with this in order to understand the effects. Symbolically, gold represents the Sun, silver the Moon, quicksilver Mercury, copper Venus, iron Mars, tin Jupiter, and lead stands for Saturn. Each of the seven types of metals has seven sounds apiece. In each singing bowl there are no less than forty-nine sounds, whether it's a laige bowl or a small one. You can hear the vibration of a singing bowl even from a distance. You can taste the vibration by touching it with your tongue to experience it with your entire body. This changes your sensitivity. Later on you only have to look at a bowl to hear the sound. Evolving further allows you inside the sound when you only think of a bowl. When I sing, I sense the presence of a large bowl. That assists me in getting into the state of sound observer. Most people become aware of their bodies only when they're sick. At a higher level, you can experience yourself as a sound being, a source of sound that is very powerful. This awareness gives me more understanding of myself, my fellow beings, the planet, and the cosmos.

LMG: So if you experience something, you also encounter the sound of that object?

JS: Yes, that's right. The first awareness of spirit is vibration. That's inspiration. All material things, natural phenomena or man made, everything, has the three aspects by which they are recognizable. There is the physical plane, and the caloric or radiating aspect, often called the aura. All living beings have this aspect which the rocks and metals don't have. The third aspect is the sound identity. When I am inside sound I'm cognizant of the three aspects all at once. I see a bird flying, I also see its dark blue and Bordeaux red aura and I experience its very high, shrill sound. I don't live this way, I live like everyone else in three dimensional awareness. Otherwise I couldn't stay in touch with people.

LMG: In your book, there is a page with marks that remind me of runes.

JS: Yes, that's the Hungarian runescript. Hungarians had their own culture when they settled there in 896 A.D. Their runes had between 32 and 36 signs. In my youth I saw shepherds use them to mark how many animals the landlords had. Even Thomas Bachi, my mentor, the village blacksmith, used a staff with runes. I'm under the impression that runes function as a memory aid. It always surprised me each time he sang differently although he always read the same thing, as if the runes served as a source of inspiration, reminding him to tune into deeper levels of awareness. In shamanism, one works with different conscious levels. The personal awareness level goes back to conception. The genetic consciousness goes back to becoming human, and is preceded by amphibian awareness, which is seated primarily in the small brain. This in turn gives way to the water consciousness of water creatures from fish to algae to protozoa where human awareness ends. Following this, crystal consciousness begins. Air or photon awareness comes next, with energy or light awareness beyond that. The seventh level* is sound consciousness. With the assistance of runes as a memory aid, Bachi was able to concentrate on a specific consciousness level. Sound activates the connection between the seven levels of human awareness.

LMG: Our mutual students have told me about your beliefs concerning water intake and 1 notice that throughout this interview you have been drinking it regularly.

JS: People in general don't drink enough water. They need to be watchful to drink much more water in order to clear the toxic wastes in their bodies. People have problems with their intestines, liver, or kidneys due to blockages that need flushing out. It's also very important that the water temperature is as warm as the body. It is more relaxing to the internal body, soothing it through a very simple physiological mechanism. Our body temperature is 36-37 Celsius (98.6 Fahrenheit) and we know that most water is at 12-14 Celsius (55-60 Fahrenheit). That's a big difference. When you drink that water it goes directly to the stomach, an important nerve center. It's where our main digestive process begins. Cold water causes contraction, cuts off the flow of enzymes, and slows down digestion. The body then has to heat that water so that it can continue functioning. When you're tense you take a drink to create better balance. If the water is warm you're not disturbed and are better able to concentrate and remain in the moment fully. When you are occupied with spiritual matters, striving for the essence, a warmth is created inside of you. Artists in particular are aware of this. At first there is the wet warmth, you sweat. This is followed by a dry warmth and next comes a radiating warmth. This radiation is as if you're on pins and needles, which is intensely noticeable throughout the whole body. This is actually our own radioactivity. When we work spiritually, we attract more radioactivity, cosmic and earth radiation. It must be cooled off. The organism can't deal with such large doses. That's why more than a few spiritualists have died of cancer; they haven't paid attention to that fact. I'm not cognizant of drinking anymore. I simply have to otherwise I reach too high a vibration because of my concentrated work with sound. Especially the firesound, the masculine, creates large amounts of heat. I also keep crystals in my drinking water. This practice is as old as human memory. The shamans and many religions use crystals, gems, and semi-precious stones on the body or consume them, as the Chinese did, grinding them to dust, for medicine. When you drink crystal infused water, you're drinking harmony homeopathically. Crystals stimulate our own defense mechanisms. There is another condition that the crystal helps. The superpowers are doing underground testing. They claim the earth's crust is thick enough, and will easily absorb the radiation. But that is absolutely untrue. Nuclear debris radiates out, affecting the winds and other atoms which influence climate. These essential molecules are becoming very disturbed. The greatest part, about two thirds, radiates into the magna, toward earth's nucleus causing it to vibrate stronger and stronger. That pushes the radioactivity up through the earth's crust. This disturbs the climate and our very lives. When you drink crystal water, you counteract the radioactivity, consciously cooling it off. It's well known that most cancers go together with great heat in the affected organ, and that the vibration of that organ needs to be cooled down. Drinking sufficient water counteracts 70 to 80 percent of the radioactivity. With a crystal in the water there is no radiation and new energies are absorbed by the body.

 LMG: Joska, you're also a successful artist.

JS: Yes, painting is a way to stay in touch with all levels of consciousness. Through these I live in an inspired state, which is somewhat like being in love, loving what you do. It's a perception, a true creation, something which never has existed until now. Creative people are vibrantly alive and strong, because their entire energy comes through at every level/ The purpose of art is to realize the soul, that exalted vibration.

LMG: Do you have any advice for people who want to work with sound?

JS: Learn to listen. Listen to silence, to inner silence. When I you're sitting or lying down, let yourself go, into that state between waking and sleeping. Remain conscious, not dozing. Let yourself go I until your breathing and heartbeat become a distraction. Allow those I sounds to go into the background, and then you arrive at a stillness, a silence, an emptiness where real things begin to happen. In the silence, the emptiness, everything has been slowed down; notice sounds, small sounds. And, of course you expand your awareness.